I'll admit that I am not the expert on economic systems, so I hope you that are will help with this discussion.
Tom said:
"Can Distributism survive in a world of Home Depots? I certainly hope and believe so. I think Chesterton would argue that I should be more concerned with the welfare of my local hardware merchant than the dividend of Home Depot stock."
David Beresford also used this GKC quote at the top of his distributism article:
"I think the big shop is a bad shop. I think that it is bad not only in a moral but a mercantile sense: that is, I think shopping there is not only a bad action but a bad bargain." GKC "The Bluff of the Big Shops," The Outline of Sanity.
All I can say is as much as I didn't want to, we shop at Walmart once they put one in one mile away. Mostly, we buy our food there. The clothes are cheap, but cheaply made. A pair of pajamas that were very inexpensive already have a hole after about one month of wear. That does make a bad bargain. However, I still shop there. I just don't buy the clothes. Is shopping at Walmart a bad action AND a bad bargain?
Tuesday, February 07, 2006
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This has been an issue I've wrestled about for a while. In fact, the Church's stance in this regard was one thing that drew me toward her--namely Pope Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum. Same with GKC. I used to try to avoid Walmart because *somebody* pays: although it's a bargain for me, it isn't a bargain for the third-world worker who receives a pathetic wage...and who has a family to feed just like me. But my missionary friend tells me that I'm naive, and that if we take away sweatshop labor from third-world countries, they would suffer--it's not a lot but it helps. I don't know. Another question I have is about Distributism: By what means do we keep the property distributed? Does the government take from those who have too much?
ReplyDelete"The clothes are cheap, but cheaply made."
ReplyDeleteThe result of slave labor in China. Wal-Mart used to have one redeeming quality: that its merchandise largely was made in the U.S. Not any more.
Nice thoughts m. So, I guess the only way to implement distributism would be, not from the top down, but from the bottom up. In other words, everybody would have to have a personal conversion to distributism. I don't think that's gonna happen on a wide scale. It's an ideal that cannot be readily seen because it doesn't offer immediate gratification, and the fallen world will not go for it. I think the Church tells us that there is no such thing as a perfect economic situation for precisely that reason: people lack the will-power to implement it. Heck look at the mess we make of the Church! It only hangs together because of the promises of Christ and the aid of the Holy Spirit. So...I don't see how distributism could ever be implemented on a wide scale for the simple reason that the only way it can be implemented is through a moral transfiguration of the entire nation beyond that of what we see even in the Church.
ReplyDeleteSince becoming more devoted to Chesterton and the ideas surrounding him, I've begun to notice them popping up all over the place. Even, I am happy to report, in places I had already looked.
ReplyDeleteIn one of Terry Pratchett's books, the watch commander Sam Vimes describes what he calls his "boots theory of economic injustice." It goes something like this:
A rich man can afford to spend $100 on a pair of boots that will last twenty years. A poor man, in contrast, can only afford to spend $20 on a pair of boots that will last for one year. By the time both men reach the twenty year mark, the poor man has spent substantially more on boots than the rich man, but still has less to show for it.
This is not exactly rocket science, but I'm glad to see that people are catching on to this sort of disparity.
Exactly! We can buy $40 pajamas at Boston Store or $14 pajamas at Walmart, depending on if we have the $40 or the $14. The $40 pair last 10 year, the $14 last, well, one month if this pair is the standard. The poor man seems to be getting ripped off, doesn't he? Unless he can sew....or repair boots....
ReplyDeleteThe last chapter of The Outline of Sanity is particularly powerful and, like much of Chesterton's work, worthy or re-reading.
ReplyDeleteIt is here that Chesterton takes his stand on the same ground we all should currently be treading; he refers to religious doctrine upholding the rights of men and insisting
"in the full sense that the average respectable citizen ought to have something to rule. We alone to the same extent and for the same reason, have the right to call ourselves democratic. A republic used to be called a nation of kings, and in our republic the kings really have kingdoms. All modern . . . movements, Capitalist or Socialist, are taking way that kingdom from the king. Because they dislike the independence of that kingdom, they are against property. Because they dislike the loyalty of that kingdom, they are against marriage." (Outline, IHS 2001, p. 182)
When we leave Mass we are given a charge to go forth and live the Mass. Embracing Distributism in our daily actions as Catholics and consumers is one way we are called to love and serve.
Yes, M, I agree; it is so easy to leave the Church when we leave the church and think only as capitalists.
ReplyDeleteWe are called to be good stewards of the gifts and blessings God has given us, perhaps the greatest of which is our creation in God's image. Distributism is a natural consequence of this stewardship; we are to uphold the dignity of man in our economic actions. Only in this way, can we prevent our fellow citizens and ultimately ourselves from becoming tools either of big business or of the government.
Kurm:
ReplyDeleteMay I also suggest two other books, not written by GKC but about him.
1) The Apostle of Common Sense. I think it is a good thing to read the chapter about the book you want to read (Chapter 11 is on The Outline of Sanity and explains in a few pages --nutshell--what the book basically is about) which helps you read Chesterton better.
2) Wisdom and Innocence by Joseph Pearce, is a great biography and helps to appreciate Chesterton in his time, and where he is in his head when he's writing his stuff. I found both these helpful as I'm reading Chesterton.
Oh, and 3) come to the conference in June in MN, you will find the conversation there to your liking--great conversations there! Hope to meet you and everyone else there.
Well, I never! :-)
ReplyDeleteI sort of know what you mean, having lived in the foreign country of Texas for a few years.
However, the Minn/St. Paul area is rich with history, the Mississippi river, the Jesuit explorers, the "Blackrobe" martyrs, and between the big cities, there is open space for people who need that to feel normal.
Dale Ahlquist, I'm told, does travel to the south, someone here heard him in Georgia, I think that's in the south, isn't it? So, instead of coming to Chesterton, you could have "Chesterton" come to you. Invite him down to speak at your local Chesterton society, and if you don't have one, start one with a special guest speaker!
I liked that funny line about the taxes. I'm working on ours right now so I can relate.
Our society is living out the fundamental collision of capitalism and Christianity and, in many ways, one could argue that capitalism is winning. While we seek to maximize profits and progress in our capitalist society, we are seemingly unsure of the goal of our progressions and what to do with our largess. Is the western world living out the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? Does a fundamentally capitalist society even consider such an idea?
ReplyDeleteDistributism is a way to live out the Gospel by cherishing the dignity of life in our economic actions; it is a fundamentally religious act and, as such, it as much about changing laws and regulations as it is about changing hearts.
Kurm – I wholeheartedly applaud you for struggling through GKC’s work. Often, I find it a struggle as well. On those days when the prose doesn’t flow and I need my Chesterton fix, I will watch an episode from Dale Ahlquist’s “Apostle of Common Sense” show which airs on EWTN Sunday nights at 9. If you are headed for an IRS refund, Tapes and DVDs of the first three seasons are available at the ACS website. While I enjoy all the episodes, the 2004 season contains some dramatic re-enactments, such as the GKC – Blatchford debate, that are captivating.
M - The January/February 2005 issue of Gilbert had "Dreams, Distributism, and Dixie" on the cover and featured a Dale Ahlquist interview with Art Livingston.
ReplyDeleteKurm - Do consider just reading the final chapter of "Outline of Sanity" before you completely put it away. I found that chapter particularly powerful and have gone back to it several times since. Let us know what else you come up with.
Speaking of Southern culture, Art Livingston himself interviewed a Southern folk/country artist named Kate Campbell nearly two years ago. The interview is a wide-ranging discussion on Distributism, the dichotomy between North and South and the many misconceptions many Yankees have about the South. It is a fascinating interview.
ReplyDeleteAnd fans of Art also can read his insightful movie reviews in every issue. :)
Bless you, Kurm and please accept my apologies. Perhaps I can use this as fodder for my next confession.
ReplyDeleteBringing about distributism is, in many ways I think, much like bringing about the kingdom of God. It requires more of an act of personal conversion than one of the legislature.